It has been good to see the mostly positive reaction to the ill-conceived comments of Oklahoma State SEN Josh Brecheen. If this man is looking to make a name for himself, he
certainly is. He put an editorial in the local paper from his senate
district, The Durant Daily Democrat. In addition to the uproar over
several things wrong with attempting to try to have creation taught
in public schools, the comments in the newspapers website have been
lambasting him for his outrageous views in other subjects as well.

Being a native son of Oklahoma, it pains me when I see this sort of pubic display of foolishness. But even more so when it is done by our government officials.

Here are a couple a links to learn more about this issue and this man.

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Comment by Frankie Dapper on December 31, 2010 at 8:51am
Bravo, Diana
Comment by Frankie Dapper on December 30, 2010 at 5:46pm

Thomas, I wrote counter-creation and atheist. I agree that arguing theology with the damned is usually fruitless and engenders an emotional fortification. I would teach all of the science that contradicts their "science". And I would oppose creationism by teaching the history of the impact of religion. I would examine creationism as a political movement and as a microcosm of the beast. I suspect that many atheists have only a sketchy understanding and most theists are utterly ignorant of their cult. Be factual. But avoid their fairy tales-the endless and fruitless discussions about how god would act  . . . .


Comment by Thomas True on December 30, 2010 at 5:24pm

I am afraid you in error Glen. It seems reasonable to think it you use facts against a illogical position that the person would have to accept that position. However, it is more likely that the person will hold more firm to their illogical belief than ever. Sadly the "lifestyle" version of atheist is one of the most effective ones. If people can see you happy and at peace, relatively, then that will show them that we really do not have any need for or desire for any god whatsoever.


I only wish that using facts were enough. I have heard and discussed with a woman that the illogical ways God behaves in the Bible actually give her joy and hope because she knows that it shows Gods power.


What can you do?

Comment by Frankie Dapper on December 30, 2010 at 12:44pm
All the more reason to adopt my position
Comment by Frankie Dapper on December 30, 2010 at 10:45am
It will make no difference how the creationism is portrayed as long as it is opposed by pointed atheism.
Comment by Thomas True on December 30, 2010 at 9:46am

I am not opposed to the idea that creationism is taught is school. I just don't want it taught as science. After all we have classes on the Classic Myths of Rome and Greece and so on. I feel that would be as good of a place as any to have the teachings of creation and the Bible relegated to.

My issue is when they try to push their fairy tales off as science. To be honest, they could have creation taught right away legally i f they would accept the fact that it is not science. It could be taught in a philosophy class.

Comment by Frankie Dapper on December 30, 2010 at 9:00am
I am in favor of creationism in public schools provided atheism and counter-creationism is given equal billing.
Comment by Thomas True on December 29, 2010 at 1:35pm

HI Diane,

The main thing for advantage that private schools have over public schools is the ability to kick a student out without returning the money that is paid. That is quite a parental incentive to make sure the student behaves properly. I do not think they have any additional legal right such as corporal punishment and the like.


Let me focus on the abortion vs beetles argument. This has nothing to do with evolution, Brecheen fails to recognize this. Plus that is a logical fallacy of a non-sequitor. I know many atheist that feel abortion is a difficult thing to deal with when it is done as a means of birth control and for the convenience of the mother. I myself would prefer that abortion occur less. But as a man I have the opportunity to prevent abortion but being responsible with how I have sex. But this, again, is a totally different discussion from biology and evolution.

About the polls, You actually only need a small sampling for a high percentage of accuracy. I studied and conducted polling when I was in college and understand the concept quite well. When they are done well you can get quite reliable results.

But you are right you can phrase the question in a way that will skew the results in your favor.


Example: DO you think all Americans should be protected by the Patriot Act to fight terrorism?


Versus: Do you think the loss of privacy is more important than the governments need to know your private information?


Basically they are asking the same thing but the result will very upon the context of the question.

Comment by Thomas True on December 29, 2010 at 10:01am

You make a good point mrs kelligurl. It is sad that you had to resort to taking you daughter out of public school as a way to protect her from ignorance. I would be curious as to how old she is?


It is odd that the fundamentalist claim that public school is too secular and your family as, I assume, atheists fine it way to religious.


I know I have done substitute teaching in public schools in Oklahoma and I found that it was almost like being at a religious school where I live now in St. Louis.


Most parents here that send their kids to private religious schools the schools are barely any more religious than the public schools. Most in all ways but a half dozens ways are indistinguishable from public schools. I think many parents just like to say, of we go to a Christian school.


Back in 10th grade I went to a Catholic school and I got as good of a science education as in public school.


By the way what curriculum do you use?

Comment by mrs kelligurl on December 28, 2010 at 10:31pm

We currently live in Oklahoma and I have taken my daughter out of the public school system here to homeschool her.  The nonsense that she has been up against here is relentless at best. The worst part of her education here has, sadly, came from her science teacher.


It's a very good point that you made about which teacher was impressed with his writing skills.  Facts are impressive to me, which of course he could not claim if presenting this nonsense to a science professor.



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