Often when religious adherents encounter an atheist for the first time a common comment they say is that they don't think pornography is right. I have heard this several times from different religious adherents in various places and times around the country. Of course this represents a very gross misunderstanding of what an atheist is. As I have stated before it has little to do with what one does but with what one fails to believe. Usually this is due to the lack of evidence to conclusively show that there is a supernatural nature to, well, anything. This being the very defining characteristic of an atheist. If you notice there is nothing in it that relates to or is dependent on anything sexually.


Atheist and sexuality cont:

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Comment by John Camilli on December 19, 2010 at 7:27pm

Okay, I think I see what you're saying, but I just don't think you see the similarity in a dogmatic theist and a dogmatic atheist. We are all tired of theists, here, to be sure, and their dogma is poignant because we've heard it all our lives. We haven't heard the dogma from atheists....yet. But that's because of timing. It hasn't been all that safe to be an atheist for several thousand years (in most places of the world), so atheists are understandably quieter and SEEM more accepting.

But they aren't. If you can listen to a discussion between the two sides (which, by the way, are not the only two sides, and are not even opposite positions), without trying to take a side, you will hear that an atheist is just as certain about their view as the theist is. And yet, neither of them could prove that God does or does not exist. Both are dogmatic.

I would say the default position is to be uncertain, since we can't prove anything, even to ourselves, except that we exist ("Cogito ergo sum" ala DesCartes). But of course, people do not survive well by being uncertain. Decisions require judgement of some kind or another, so evolution has tended to reproduce those individuals who are certain. That does not make their position the correct one. I suspect the only "correct" position to take, if there really is such a thing, is to be unsure of anything.

Its the infamous Sophist argument. And perhaps you've heard the parable of Socrates and the Sophist: the sophist tries to purport that it is impossible to known anything for sure, and Socrates simply responds "are you sure?" It seems to make sophism a self-defeating argument, yet all the sophist would have had to say was "How could I be?" The burden of proof lies on the irrational conclusion and since their is plenty of uncertainty in human experience, it is irrational to assume that certainty even exists, unless you can provide an example of what it is, or how it could be achieved. And the only person to come close to such an example was DesCartes - I think, therefore, I am, but no one has come up with a way to turn that statement into a moral or religious philosophy.

If you admit that "for every rule we come up with there is a way to skirt it" then you admit that we live in a morally relativistic world, and that objective certainty is impossible. This makes atheism just as untenable a position as theism.

Am I making sense?

Comment by Thomas True on December 18, 2010 at 4:22pm

What I mean but atheist being the natural default position is, that lacking any other influence of supernatural stories, one is not required to adhere to a dogmatic belief. As I have said before, I understand that for every rule we come up with there is a way to skirt it. But I am speaking generally and from studies I have read.


I know this really doesn't help you any in knowing what I am referring to, as I cannot recall the context of the information at the time.


The main problem with my "default position" statement is that it is hard to test and is subject to you society and point of view. But as I have said before. Those that hold to dogmatic ideas have no such problems with making broad generalzations and wouldn't even consider that there is a weakness in their dogma.


Just remember, You shall never use absolute when making a statement. Or to quote Sout Park. "We will not tolerate your intolerance."


When does the party start?

Comment by John Camilli on December 18, 2010 at 3:10pm

The clubs comment was a euphamism, but I'll be sure not to use such complicated ideas here again, lol.

As for me tearing down arguments, you're right. If an atheist wants to make any claim about knowing anything for sure about how the world works, I will absolutely tear it down. And if it's possible for me to tear it down until there's no meat left, then there never was any meat to begin with, and it was just as much of a delusion as any theist has.


And why is the natural default position to be an atheist. Lack of evidence does not mean you can decide God doesn't exist; it just means you don't have enough evidence one way or another. If you decide God doesn't exist, with a lack of evidence, then you are just as bad as a theist. Whether I'm talking about my experiences or your is irrelevant. You dont have certain knowledge any more than I do. We are all ignorant humans, so to say we know God doesn't exist or that we know God does exist is just as foolish either way.

Comment by Maverick Jester on December 17, 2010 at 11:41am

My guess is that the religious person is speaking about something that they would like to do if their religion didn't prevent them from doing it. So, that particular speaker would probably love to look at porn and imagines that without religion, everyone would like to do the same.



Comment by Jim DePaulo on December 17, 2010 at 10:31am

The highest, per capita, sale of porn in the nation is Utah - not exactly an Atheist refuge.

Comment by Thomas True on December 17, 2010 at 12:27am

I don't think I mentioned anywhere at all about being in a club when I heard these comments.


You are one of the reasons that atheist cannot confront the religious adherents because any position a person takes that is on your side, you are going to pick and tear at until it has no meat left to it whatsoever.


The natural default position is to be an atheist. Lack of evidence and so forth. SO you do not achieve a level of disbelief, you simply do not acquire it or you fail to keep it.


As far as your experiences and mine, I was referring to mine and not yours. If I was to be referring to yours, I would have had talked to you first. The point is that adherents are irrational when it comes to their faith so they make irrational connections and conclusions.


Weather your particular experience has lead you to encounter adherents that think you worship Satan, or are a porn promoter or what ever irrational view they have, the point is that the dogmatic belief is what causes them to think that they possess the moral high ground when in fact they are often enough the causes of the immorality that the claim to be against.

Comment by John Camilli on December 16, 2010 at 10:56pm

Im not sure what kind of clubs you're hanging out in, but I've never had anyone argue against atheism by railing on porn. They don't really have anything to do with each other.


As for your impression of what an atheist is, I'm afraid you are mistaken. An atheist, just like a theist, IS A BELIEVER: they believe God does not exist. A theist has decided they believe God does exist. That's the difference. People who are undecided are agnostic.


Any time you make a decision based on incomplete evidence, you are believing. And since mankind is necessarily a creature of limited intellect, every decision we make is with incomplete information. Any judgement is therefore a belief. The only way to NOT believe, is to remain undecided - an agnostic.



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