It is very nice being 78 years old and able to rest after a life of very hard work and great interest in people. Mountains, rivers and valleys interest me, too, and I wonder why they exist, what elements make them, and how long it took to build up or tear down. I like being able to say no to requests or tell others what I need. It gives me great pride to know the challenges I have met and overcome and that nothing has pulled me down. It feels good to have a good mind that works, that is trustworthy, dependable with capabilities that serve me well. Changes take place in my body, now, things like difficulty seeing or hearing. There is enough I can see and hear that I have great pleasures to enjoy.

Being born female presented particular challenges. "Can't", "don't", "be silent", all present opportunities for me to find my own limits, not those imposed on me by others. I like being a woman, of being able to care for people, or not. Of being weak, or not. Of being dependent, or not, Of being passive, or not.

Being a strong woman feels right for me, interdependent with family, friends, and co-workers, and being able to think critically and take decisive action when needed. I can remember a history of struggle and turmoil of women and of hearing their cries for safety. I can imagine a preferred future of women and men being able to live without harming each other and then creating that memory of the future in the here and now.

There are women content with being dependent, passive and subordinate. That never fit me. Being traditionally female felt like a tight pair of shoes that hurt with every step. The wonder of it all is that being a strong woman hurts no one and helps to bring about the kind of a paradigm shift so badly needed ... for both men and women.  

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Comment by Joan Denoo on November 4, 2014 at 11:11am

Ouch! "it seems that you do indeed approve of those reprehensible attitudes." Please explain to me how I approve of reprehensible attitudes" I thought that is what I am against. I truly want to know.  

Comment by Čenek Sekavec on November 4, 2014 at 3:50am

Bore me? No. But horrible as those things are the have nothing to do with my question. Neither do they shock me into distraction.

I don't concern myself whether an idea comes from a man or a woman but rather the content of the idea. Those traits you cited (and more) aren't male traits. They are human traits.  I have no worries about the future of my daughter because she'll have rationality as her yardstick against which she can measure all. Excepting violence, people are only taken advantage of by their own permission.

I have never known irrationality to be defended by the rational. 

I guess I have nothing more to say on this. I'm sorry to admit that it seems that you do indeed approve of those reprehensible attitudes. I'm sorry you think of men the way you do. I had quite a high opinion of you.

Comment by Joan Denoo on November 2, 2014 at 12:06am

NO! No! No! You didn't say women manipulate and exploit men, I said it. When I was doing my research on family violence, the research revealed that men and women use different kinds of power. Men use physical power, women use manipulative power. It just makes sense, if a person feels helpless, they use whatever power they can to not feel helpless. 

As to radical feminists and their strategies, Čenek, the struggle women face from time immemorial, has been unequal access to power. Women don't want power to control others, but to have basic rights of speaking their minds and doing what is right for them. I talked to women in China and in Mexico, in Alaska, and Costa Rica. In thirty two countries. I talked to my grandmothers and my mother, and the stories are the same. I don't know how to make it more clear than I have stated. We have tried to reason with men, to no avail. We tried to seduce them, it doesn't work. We tried crying, begging, pleading, and things don't change. We threaten men, it doesn't get through to them. We learned how to do the work of men and for less pay, women still remain invisible.

I won't go into the gruesome details of the punishment women experienced as they attempted to be treated as fully human. I won't tell you about the hoses forces down women's throats and then water forced into their stomachs. I will not complain about the fists in faces of women who express an opinion. I will not bore you with details of women marching, and boycotting to get fair treatment.

Because reasonable and rational strategies do not change anything, because going insane does not do the job, therefore, irrational, unreasonable strategies make perfectly good sense.  

A well trained woman can use all her training and things stay the same. So here is one strategy for you that I deplore, but it just might get someone's attention. 

These little girls drop F bombs to promote feminism

I hope when your little girl grows and develops, the ugly, mean spirited, disgusting, outrageous behaviors of men will mature to the point of being gentlemen. I hope she will not face cat calls as she walks down the business street. I hope that she doesn't get gouged by greedy car repairmen. 

If she has these experiences, I hope she has the courage and wisdom to demand respect. Čenek, you prepare your daughter for the reality of these mean streets because if she is not prepared, she will face some tough learning experiences when you are not there to protect her. 

Now. Have I answered your question? 

Comment by Čenek Sekavec on November 1, 2014 at 7:48pm

I don't recall saying anything about women manipulating or exploiting men. I don't know where that came from. You addressed something I didn't say.  

What I am asking for is your response to the radical feminist ideas, either in the links I posted months back or in the link jay H posted below. And I'm not just singling you out I really do want to hear from all feminists on this. Do you consider these radical feminist ideas acceptable?

Comment by Joan Denoo on November 1, 2014 at 6:52pm

Michael, strange you would ask, "Do you have a persecution complex associated with being a woman?" Especially when you put up a valid critique of circumcision for males. Do you not see that men and women are caught in the same trap of religious constructs designed for the benefit of the tribe, not for the benefit of the individual.

Yes, of course, I have a persecution complex associated with being a woman! 

Do you have a persecution complex associated with being a male?

Comment by Joan Denoo on November 1, 2014 at 6:36pm

Čenek, I did address the issue of females using dysfunctional behavior in the attempt to equalize power. 

" I want women and men to be able to debate without men playing the size and gender card. Women learn how to manipulate and exploit men because they have been held from the kinds of education that prepares them for life. Women do exploit men because they cannot, in the past, get jobs that pay living wages."

Of course women manipulate exploit men. It is a power source for women just as size and gender are the men's power sources, stereotypically speaking; men use their fists, women their tongues. Surprised? 

The trouble, as I see it Čenek, is that when a reasonable women object to words or behaviors, they pay a price in ridicule and name calling. Yes, I watched your videos and I think they demonstrated my point. 

Comment by Čenek Sekavec on November 1, 2014 at 4:01pm

You ask, "Define good feminism." I thought I had. I think good feminism is nearly synonymous with humanism. But I'd also use your words, if I may, to define good feminism: "I want little girls and boys to be free of fear in their own homes and lives. I want women and men to be able to debate without men playing the size and gender card."  Joan those sentiments are also my sentiments. But in the last sentence I'd replace "men" with "anyone". Women play that card too.

As for the rest of your questions I know that we've talked about all that before in other threads and blogs so I'll let it be not responded to if that's ok with you. 

Jay H posted a link to a radical feminist blog. Feminism has a history of integrating the radical ideas. If you really agree that those radical genocidal ideas should be integrated into mainstream feminism then I am struck speechless.

When I first encountered radical feminists it was when they were protesting and shouting at the men we were walking by. I was called a rapist and spit on just because I was a man. This isn't a fringe group. It is growing and getting younger. And the reason is because of the radical feminist professors at Universities (particularly in Toronto and in Melbourne). When I posted a blog here on AN about my experience I also posted many links where these radicals candidly share their thoughts. Did you and other feminists read and watch those links? 

I want to know where AN feminists stand on the radical issues. 

Comment by Joan Denoo on November 1, 2014 at 1:42am

Imagine, if you will, a baby wakes up to physical fights between parents, with blood, screams, swearing, and name calling. These fights go on, day after day. What do you suppose that child learns? Does a child learn about size differences, gender differences, defensive and offensive behaviors that last for the rest of his or her life? 

Imagine, again, that child at 16 years old. The dating game begins, sorting through possible lifetime mates. Do you think that young woman or man is prepared to make a wise decision? Is she or he capable of recognizing dysfunction in one’s own family and able to make wiser choices? Do you think the distinction is the wounded ones make choices that maintain and perpetuate those childhood memories that may be stored in the subconscious mind? Perhaps there is conscious awareness and efforts to change things for their future lives. Or perhaps they have to reach a new level of maturity to discover there exists better ways to live?

Do you think “that the radical feminist ideas will continue to infiltrate mainstream 'good' feminism? Define “good feminism. Is it the dependent, passive, subordinate little thing that asks for permission to be fully human? Could it be that radical feminism needs to infiltrate “good feminism”?

Christina Hoff Sommers stated “We must have moral education in the schools, anti-bullying programs, but this does not mean programs to feminize boys.” If there is a fear that education for boys is to feminize them, the fact is, many boys dominate, manipulate and exploit many girls, to the detriment of both boys and girls. Sadly, too many girls are learning bullying techniques as a reaction formation. 

I don’t think radical women seek “to enforce a homogeneous culture”. At least, that is not what I seek. I want little girls and boys to be free of fear in their own homes and lives. I want women and men to be able to debate without men playing the size and gender card. Women learn how to manipulate and exploit men because they have been held from the kinds of education that prepares them for life. Women do exploit men because they cannot , in the past, get jobs that pay living wages. They have learned to do the same jobs as men for less pay and benefits. They have become accustomed to earning less pay for equivalent work. Being a teacher or a nurse has high cultural value.  

People don’t like hearing or reading these facts and want to put a lid on women who stand up and say we have had enough. We cannot have peace within ourselves or between us if we continue old patterns.

Have you read the numbers of women on this site that seem to be asking for permission to be? Do you hear their cries? Do you feel their torment? They don’t want to replace patriarchy with matriarchy. They want full partnership in marriages and to be equal participants in life. Those timid ones that seek approval take brave steps away from religion and family and friends. One day they will be able to stand tall, head held high, shoulders straight and strong, with a spine of steel and arms of velvet, loving and caring, as is many of their natures. 

I don’t want to take the masculine out of males nor the feminine out of females. I want men and women to be different in their attitudes and stop all the dysfunction that caries on from generation after generation. 

Comment by Michael Pianko on October 31, 2014 at 8:09pm
Do you have a persecution complex associated with being a woman?
Comment by Čenek Sekavec on October 31, 2014 at 6:57pm

Joan I think I understand what you mean. Ideas are passed implicitly and explicitly between generations. Sometimes they are visible via actions and sometimes dormant waiting for a trigger.

It is a fact that all of us are wired from birth to regard certain things, in a certain way. These are instincts from millions of years ago when we were reptiles. To pick one thing as an example of this, it is related but perhaps not causal to why height is so subtly important in human interpersonal relations. Do similar studies on other animals and you get nearly the same data set.

I think this is one danger of ideological feminism: that by claiming clear causal links it creates this dogma that stops so many young people from thinking. "Patriarchy exists and no skepticism allowed." I'm concerned quite a lot that the radical feminist ideas will continue to infiltrate mainstream 'good' feminism. It also concerns me when egalitarian feminists don't ridicule the self identified radical feminists because then I wonder if the groups secretly agree. The only feminist I know of who does this critique is Christina Hoff Summers, and for this I admire her.

Feminism has done amazing work. I think there is still a lot of work for it to do. 

I think I know you well enough Joan to assert that though you are a natural leader and you don't find your less bold counterparts as 'tools of the patriarchy' or 'unfulfilled' people as some other mainstream feminists claim. 

And maybe that is just where the distinction is: the way that we regard people who make choices that are different from ours. I think that many outspoken feminists are trying to enforce a homogeneous culture - surely this cannot be a good thing if we are also a society that exalts freedom of choice.  



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