Think of the most hideous thing that has ever happened to a single individual or nation. A woman raped and then savagely murdered right in front of her three children, for example. If a "God" really didn't want that to happen, it wouldn't have, would it? Ditto when it comes to the Holocaust and the massive death and suffering caused by "natural" calamities - in fact, all of mankind's suffering

When "the Lord" decided to call that raped and murdered woman "home," to use and example, He picked when, where, and under what conditions she would perish. As for the three traumatized children . . . well, what can one say? They've been pitilessly traumatized for life! Or do I have it wrong here?

His Godness wanted Saul of Tarsus to quit persecuting Christians, didn't he? Took a persecutor (perhaps even a murderer) of Christians and turned him into something altogether different as part of some sort of a divine plan, we are told. Then had the Romans execute him eventually. Or did His Almightiness not want that to happen?

So much for free-will, eh'?

Rough stuff here, I know. It's actually unpleasant to post these kind of thoughts due to its sensitive nature and the honest desire not to offend Christians of noble heart and conscience. But there are some crazy-ass theists out there that actually believe we atheists to be inherently evil, yet worship and adore the Creator of evil - that would be "God" - and look down their collective noses at us (or far worse) for not doing so as well. On top of that, expecting us all the while to believe in imaginary creatures not a one of em' can actually prove exist!

That's nuts.

Or am I off-base here?

Greywolf's - meaning Lawrence Flowers' 1st Dictum:There can be no greater evil in the world than the Creator of Evil. The conscious, deliberate act of creating evil is, in itself, inherently evil. End of story.

Greywolf's 2nd Dictum: If it happened, God wanted it to. If He didn't, it would never have happened. (Assuming the creature God actually exists, of course.) Note:This would include every human tragedy, every evil to befall man. Would it not? - A sobering conclusion that needs to be honestly addressed by brave, uncompromising, minds in their quest for the truth.

For more on the theological aspects concerning thel origin of evil,



For an example of my genuine respect for the "good" Christians we live among - though still harboring a staggeringly great difference of opinion within,


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Comment by Greywolf on February 14, 2010 at 1:07am
Meant for Steve

Would just add that the great men and women of science who've been profoundly religious - even members of the clergy - haven't felt their efforts to be in conflict with their religious beliefs, of course. They've felt temselves to be helpiing to reveal the craftsmanship of the Divine.

They, like their non-theist counterparts, were searching for the answers to the mysteries of life, the ultimate truths. The religious scientist is trying to "prove" the existence of a God of some sort, we may suppose. But how would that come about unless something truly supernatural was revealed to every man, woman, and child in a way that was utterly irrefutable? And then the purpose of all of mankind's misery, suffering, pain, anguish, and agony would be for . . . what purpose again?

Am stuggling for my very existence out here. That's why I brought up the bit about religious zealots being able to readily kill the non-believer given the ability to, given the right circumstances. It's an impulse embedded somewhere in the religious zealot's mind - perhaps in some gene - as history has borne out. And yet we find so much good, so much nobility in so many people of faith. You wonder, then, why the irrational hostility and ill-will directed at the non-theist. After all, it all comes down to a matter of personal belief - or the lack thereof. Why such venomous hatred for the atheist on the part of so many otherwise morally upright, decent people?

I don't understand it.

It's rather telling though, that a religious zealot can insist that the "original" books of the bible, for example, contained no error whatsoever despite the fact that there isn't even one original book of the bible that has managed to survive the ages. Yes. The fundamentalists insist that the present collection of manuscripts are free from error - inherently - anyway. But the point here is that they maintain that to be true of books that don't even exist to validate that claim!.

The die-hard fundamentist mind will never accept any scientific "truth" that conflicts with what they perceive to be their religion's truth - until something in their lives causes a profound wiping clear of the mind's eye and their turn to atheism or agnosticism, that is. And then what they once thought to be as real as the noon-day sun up and disappears on them like the illusion it was. The mirage is then seen for what it truly was and is.

Both sides of the divide will continue to believe deeply in what we believe to be the truth in regards to our existence, of course. But we must do so in as amiable a way as we can. We absolutlely have to.

I'm just saddened that it seems an impossible task for some people. The zealots are hell-bent on imposing their religious views on the rest of us, aren't they? And thinking they're doing us a grand favor all the while.

We've got to resist them tooth-and-nail.

As an aside, I can't help but note that I've had an extremely difficult time trying to compose much of anything for my blog due to the appalling situation out here. You've given me an outlet to express some things I've been unable to express on my own site. But. boy, have I ever over-done it here, haven't I?

Well, anyway, I thank you for that.
Comment by Greywolf on February 13, 2010 at 6:20pm
Meant for "Steve' (Below)

The fact that our brains have evolved in stages (and segments) leading to the Neo-Cortex can give one the right to call our brain our "brains", I suppose. But somewhere along the way our "brains" got wired to accept religious belief as vital to our being somehow. (And note: not belief in the very same exact universal rendition of some particular supernaturel deity, but belief in supernatural deity nonetheless. How bizarre of our brain/brains! We freethinker types can see just how baseless and downright preposterous many a religous claim is with no problem whatsoever. They're as obvious to us as the noon-day sun! Yet the die-hard theist just can't seem to "see" what we see. And no amount of appealing to reason and logic will do. The Jesus-God Christian fundamentalists worship must seem to be as real to them as the noon-day sun too. But one thing about their reality: If their Jesus-God is for real "real", then how is it so many Christian fundamentalists end up becoming atheists and agnostics? What" What was once undeniably real magically dissolve away from reality all of a sudden?

What is so supremely ironic is that some of the greatest advances ever made in science were put forward by members of the clergy. And along my field of expertise: some of the most devastating assaults on the veracity of "Scripture" and Christian theology have come about through pious members of the clergy. They simply could not help trying to be as truthful as they could. But remarkably, still retained their pious belief, in most instances. (The Catholic Theologian/Bible Scholar. Raymond E. Brown, to cite just one example.) Just astounding. That is why we non-theists have a hopeless task in trying to defend our non-belief in the face of the theists. Even when admitting error, they hold firm to their faith. And we atheists end up appearing "evil' for pointing to those errors as reasons helping to justify our non-belief. A no-win situation. A theist has to come to atheism or agnosticism on his or her own. It's a complete waste of time trying to "debate" hard-core Christians into accepting the absurdity of some of their beliefs. At best, we can only try and explain why we don't believe and leave them stymied by their inability to prove us wrong.

But what is most bothersome about the Christian zealot is that there are more than a few who would readily kill a nonbeliever for his or her's non-belief for some grotesque, abominable reason. Their brain is wired to do that. Know of any atheists who would readily kill a theist for the sole reason the theist believes in a "God"? I didn't think so. Our atheist-developed brains are not wired like that.

Food for thought. But should my observation be found to be inaccurate, I would readily admit to being wrong. In fact, I'd welcome it. I want to be wrong on this one.
Comment by Greywolf on February 12, 2010 at 2:59pm
Meant for "Steve".

Hope you recognize I was being entirely facetious in paragraph five below. So much for the Pope being "infallible" in matters of faith, eh'? Or would being wrong in regards to what the Church was espousing in regards to the movement of the earth and sun not qualify as a "matter of faith"?

Oh, it should read, "what in the hell happened to their brain (not "brains")" in the below. Christian fundamentalists possessing more than one brain would certainly turn the scientific world on its head, wouldn't it?
Comment by Greywolf on February 11, 2010 at 9:25pm
Meant for "Steve" (Below)

We are entering a period of our country's history that could conceivably be the start of America's equivalent of the "Dark Ages". Science is under attack like I've never seen it.

The fundamentalist you debated - and countless others like him - are incapable of using simple common sense and reason when it comes to anything that appears to conflict with their religious faith. They are simply too brainwashed - and yes that's what they are - to see a religious falsehood for what it truly is.

Eventually some fundamentalists climb out of their fog, see the truth for what it is, and wonder what in the hell happened to their brains that could lead them to believe so fervently in the preposterous and the absurd. But, unfortuanately, only a relatively few do. Most will just opt for accepting belief in a different branch of religion, if anything.

Saw the movie "Inherit the Wind" again just the other night. A flawed movie, to be sure. But the behavior of the religious zealots in that movie, as in real life, points to some kind of defect of the brain. There is something profoundly wrong with such people. And, Yes, the children of such people pay a heavy price for their ignorance. But, hey, they're "happy". They feel they exemplify everything that is holy and righteous. And on top of everything, they can't be wrong because they say so. Who needs scientific fact when you have religious "truth"?

All you need remember is how "right" the Church was in espousing the "fact" that it's the sun that rotates around the earth and not vice-versa: A scientific fact that must have been transmitted straight from "God" to the Pope, we would have to believe.

Yes. Religious extremism forced on a child most definitely IS a form of child abuse. The children are indoctrinated in the sincere belief that the parents are doing the most imaginable good in doing so. But they are blinded from the actual harm they are doing to their children. Noble ethics and morality do not stem from brainwashing children to believe in the preposterous. But in good parenting and people of noble heart and conscience leading by example in their every-day lives - regardless of their particular brand of religious belief, or lack there of.
Comment by Greywolf on February 9, 2010 at 3:20am
Meant for "Steve" (Below)

The fellow you engaged and countless others like him point to a "species" of humans that seem to possess some sort of brain defect, sorry to say.

And that is said out of sadness. Not out of derision. It really isn't. There is something profoundly "wrong" going on inside the brain of a religious extremist.

Believing in the preposterous and the absurd -belief in the literal "truth" of Matthew 27:52-53, to take an example - can be nothing other than a defect of the intellect. But what the precise cause of it is leaves me scratching my head. Truth is, many of these type of people eventually come to their senses and become either atheists or agnostics - or more "mainstream" Christians. Thank goodness! But their lot is a very dangerous bunch to the intellectual freedom and liberty Americans have fought so strenuoulsy to protect through time. Their anti-science stance when it comes to the origins of Man is especially troubling. When scientists discover a fatal flaw (or in some cases, outright fraud!) in some accepted scientific fact, science is quick and honest enough to abandon it and revise science's position in its search for the truth. The religious fundamentalists can't bring themselves to do the same. A sure sign of intellectual dishonesty and woeful ignorance.

But more than that. They'll even kill fellow "God believers" if that God-belief doesn't conform to their own - as history has painfully taught us. As for atheism: well, I'm seeing and feeling first-hand just how vicious religious intolerance can get. Unreal.

These are just the sort of people that would vote for Sarah Palin for President in a heartbeat too.

We ignore or dismiss them at our peril. The fact that we can't reason with them in any real meaningful way is frustrating beyond belief at times. Isn't it?
Comment by Greywolf on February 8, 2010 at 11:47am
Oops! Meant for "Steve" (below).

Hmmm. Seems your counterpart forgets his "inerrant" Bible. Seems to have forgotten Isaiah 45:7; John 1:3; and Colossians 1:16.

If "God" created every single thing "seen and unseen" in existence, then it goes without saying He created evil as well. End of story. Or are those passages in John and Colossians "wrong"?

The devil creating evil would give more power to a God-created entity than God. The devil would end up having the ability to create something God absolutely abhors, detests, and really does not want to exist! And how could the devil create evil within the confines of God's "perfect" sphere of existence? Where did "Satan" find the elements that make up evil if not from within God's pre-Adam & Eve's "heavenly kingdom"? A God-created WalMart?

And where did the "devil" get the impulse to do evil from if not from an already existing "idea" to do so. In other words, evil already being created as a thought to act, or not act, upon.

How could the devil "start" evil if God didn't want him to?

The fundamentalist you engaged in a free exchange of ideas with is in a no-win situation. You can't preach an infinitely loving, merciful, compasionate, and just God - the very personification of perfect goodness - when that being is the author of, the "inventor" of, evil. Simply doesn't hold water, does it?

Lastly, the very act of creating evil is, in itself, inherently evil, isn't it?. Your Christian counterpart want proof? Does not his (make-believe) God abhor evil and plan to eradicate it altogether at some point in the future?

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