So I feel a feel a bit akward now. I first came to this site as a scared just out of the closet atheist. I grew up here and have now come out in the open with my actual name and even now show my face(beware.)

 This site has been everthing to me. I would not be doing what I am if it was not for you good folks. That is no crap. Now I have a Youtube channel that i would no have if it was not for you. I do not make any money on it at all. It is simply a different way to reach people, specifically fundamentalist is my target group.

So I now instead of writing post express myself often in video format. I hope That my new way of expressin mysel is O.K. with everyone.

 I found that in this community it was commen squash bad ideas, no matter where they come from even if it is also atheist. Thank you fo that.In this video I do just that. Most of my viewers are atheist though I really want theist. I may loose many viewers with this one. I hope you enjoy watching me challenge others as I have been challenged here. I would love your thoughts on this format and what I had to say.

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Comment by Frankie Dapper on December 2, 2018 at 3:52am

Joan, you are welcome.

Not sure what you are getting at in first paragraph. In rereading Loren's words the only part i see that can be interpreted as fact is...yet he went in there anyway...which is lacking in substance since it is recapitulation of the article and adds nothing. 

As to your second and third paragraph let me go at it one more time. Loren characterizes missionaries in general and the young man in particular in a way that any reasonable person will know that Loren thinks ill of missionaries. I won't go over his language as it is needlessly tedious. When one party characterizes another in such starkly judgmental terms (i agree with Loren) typically the speaker intends the listener to draw a judgmental conclusion. i e FUCK HIM!  

Free will is an interesting topic that has been tackled ad nauseum without however having caused a consensus. My take on the issue is that free will is a joke. No such thing. Not even close. And i have no desire to open the topic. You should be aware however that if you were to capitulate to the notion that free will does not exist it would cause havoc with many of your assumptions. 

Comment by Joan Denoo on December 2, 2018 at 2:30am

Frankie, thanks for the prompt reply. I interpreted your statement, "Loren did not simply state facts. In fact, he made assumptions and stated opinions." I read that to mean Loren did not simply state facts, he made assumptions and stated opinions. Does not your sentence state Loren made a statement, assumptions, and opinions? 

Your statement, "Loren was leading his readers down the primrose path to a conclusion, namely: FUCK HIM." I read that to mean Loren leads his readers to a conclusion to "fuck him," i.e. the young man. I don't understand or agree with this statement. Loren takes no such leadership role.

You stated, "Loren is leading us to a judgment of the missionary without stating his ultimate conclusion." I do not agree with your statement; it makes no sense to me.

I am a notoriously poor philosopher; I failed miserably in my philosophy courses and don't understand, "we are matter in motion and the universe is deterministic and notions of good and evil are constructs and superfluous."

I understand we consist of matter that moves.

As to whether the universe, including human action, are determined by causes regarded as external to the will may or may not be true. I argue with Sam Harris and Daniel Dennett on this topic. 

"Notions of good and evil are constructs, however, are they superfluous? It is good to support the flourishing of desired flora and fauna; it is evil to prevent such flourishing; with some obvious exceptions. We don't want cancer and infectious diseases to flourish even though they are living organisms. 

I agree that you, I, and each individual has the right and responsibility to be oneself, whatever that means, and we are endowed with the obligation to be discerning about attitudes and behaviors of others. 

Comment by Frankie Dapper on December 1, 2018 at 8:36pm

Joan my comment is directed to Compelled and i quote... Loren you did not wish him harm or celebrate it. You simply stated fact, you must be commended. 

First his comment is factually inaccurate as to stating facts. More importantly, in interpreting Loren I take issue as it is plain that Loren is leading us to a judgment of the missionary without stating his ultimate conclusion. 

I simply avoided the niceties and stated my conclusion which was and is FUCK HIM. (THE MISSIONARY) i agree with your sentiments Joan. And i have same sentiments for colonial exploitation, expressions of racism manifesting in lynchings and genocides etc. If they die in the manifestation of their ideological zeal then fuck them and praise a nonexistent god. 

As i stated in my first comment i can examine the issue of propriety of atheist reactions to this incident with missionary in two ways. First, philosophically it may be that we are matter in motion and the universe is deterministic and notions of good and evil are constructs and superfluous. Or i can be myself and judge of someone who would blithely enter a foreign world and attempt to insert his purported superior creed and transform an entire culture. I cant feign sympathy for the guy. I wish harm to him. And in his letter he did acknowledge god might not save him. 

The horse comment is an old cliche. I was not using it as a metaphor for the boat. 

Comment by Joan Denoo on December 1, 2018 at 6:12pm

"assumptions?" Frankie, of course, we made assumptions about this young man. He knew he was going into dangerous territory. He knew they kill intruders. He knew he could be taking in diseases for which the tribal member had no immunity. He knew the political power did not want people to go into that tribal area. He knew the tribe existed for hundreds of years, if not thousands of years without his intervention. He knew they were not Christian and he wanted them to hear the stories of the Christians. He did not know if the tribe wanted to hear the stories of other religions. As far as I am concerned, the young man was not wanted, not invited, and not welcomed. Certainly, the gestures of the tribal members indicated he was not welcome. 

He got exactly what he understood he would get.

As for myself, Loren led me nowhere in this matter. I already decided how I felt about the young man, his motives, and his risks. He was a fool who walked into a death he could have, should have anticipated. No one forced him to go. He is the one and the only one responsible for his bloody death.

As to the horse to which you refer, you use the metaphor of a horse when, in fact, it was a boat that delivered him to the waters near the tribe and the landfall he made. The boat didn't force him to go near the island. They were his ores that directed him to the island and shore. Not the current, nor the waves, and certainly not the compass that directed him to land there. 

Frankie, why are you so adamantly critical of those of us who lay responsibility for his death on him? We did not "fuck him," and we did not "fuck" the missionaries. He and they did that to himself and themselves.

As for religious people sending missionaries out to proselytize, I am 100% opposed to the practice. I spelled out my reasons below. 

You usually are a reasonable man, Frankie; what caused your unreasonable outburst?

Comment by Loren Miller on December 1, 2018 at 5:17pm

[shrug] One way or another, Chau presumed a mission upon himself which cost him his life.  At minimum, his judgment was suspect.  At maximum ... I refer you to my comment below.

Comment by Frankie Dapper on December 1, 2018 at 4:25pm

I take issue with that comment Compelledunbeliever.

Loren did not simply state facts. In fact he made asssumptions and stated opinions. My assumption is that Loren was leading his readers down the primrose path to a conclusion, namely: FUCK HIM AND THE HORSE HE RODE IN ON EXCEPT LEAVE THE HORSE ALONE CUZ THEY'RE A LOT NICER THAN MISSIONARIES!

Comment by Joan Denoo on December 1, 2018 at 3:23am

Loren, I agree with Compelledunbeliever, you stated facts & I tip my hat to you!

Comment by Compelledunbeliever on December 1, 2018 at 3:14am

 Loren you did not wish him harm or celebrate it. You simply stated fact, you must be commended.

Comment by Loren Miller on November 28, 2018 at 7:54am

"Hubris" is indeed the word for this, Joan, added to the unmitigated gall represented by the "Great Commission."  People like Chau are so certain of their own rectitude and the necessity that EVERYONE believe as they do that any alternative becomes not just secondary but not worthy of consideration.

There's another failure here as well, and that is one of EMPATHY.  Chau and those like him can't conceive that those living without Christian indoctrination might actually be Happy As They Are.  Gee whiz, what a concept.  Yet he went in there anyway, regardless of the lack of welcome.  I've said it many times: those who want to be stupid can learn to pay the price for being stupid.

And in this case, that price was high.

Comment by Joan Denoo on November 26, 2018 at 1:23am

I stand against missionaries going into an area to proselytize. That is their charge by the bible and by religious tradition, but I do not agree with them.

First of all, they may spread diseases.

Second is the hubris to think the missionaries' religion is better than others'.

Third, the stories they tell too often include the ones of damnation and fear.

Fourth, giving people hope when there is no evidence that a savior exists or that heaven is real is hurtful to primitives.

Fifth, basing the missionaries' stories from the bible puts a native into a dilemma that comes from a world halfway around the world and at least 2,000 years old. 

From my perspective, Native American spirituality has more power than the stories that come from the bible. I am definitely prejudiced on this point. 

I like the projects that send people to teach how to build merry-go-rounds that draw water out of the ground into a cistern, or how to build sanitary toilets. 



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