I have found my boyfriend and I to be somewhat of outcast amongst outcast in the nontheist community. Most atheist we know are very liberal in their view of the world while I myself consider myself in most respects to be conservative. I am pro-choice and I believe in gay rights 110% but thats pretty much where it ends. I'm a good old southern girl who likes her BBQ and gun rights. I have never felt so free as when I shrugged of the chains of the Death Cult of christianity so its hard for me to understand why people pick up a new yoke of controling people's individual rights with any sense of entitlement. If this life is all we have why do some of us feel the need to tell anyone how to live it?

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Comment by Steve Thomas on October 10, 2010 at 5:03pm
Red, thought of you this morning with regards to pretty much a different issue. I gots a new hero I think, maybe 'heroine'--not trying at all to suck up to anyone but MAN it seems like women are coming on fast these days. Anyway, thing is that this lady's Muslim. :) Practicing, far as I'm aware. I know. It's Shirin Ebadi, who happened also to win the Nobel Peace Prize (if that makes any difference). So what it amounts to is that we're really in a mixed world, I think. I expect "team sweatshirts" will still be readily available but that it will get more difficult to really identify with "sides" as time goes on, or even tell the good guys from the bad ones.

Other top favorites (just to illustrate?) include Annie Laurie Gaylor--pretty much self-identifies as a "huge" liberal who says she has "mixed feelings" about another hero of mine having associated herself with the conservative Heritage Foundation: Aayan Hirsi Ali.

Personally I have to say I hate religion. Hate even to say 'hate' there but I can't think of any other word that fills the bill and would be honest. Despite those feelings, I have no choice but to side with any religious person who actively involves themselves with human rights, for instance. To me the two things seem like oil and vinegar, but people like that do exist, many are both fierce and effective.

The guy who wrote this article about liberalism and conservatism himself has to risk being labeled Scientologist--since he is seriously anti head-med.

You're looking at or are in medicine? Science really is great since it has a way of getting to the bottom of things eventually. And religion no question has been one of the biggest barriers. But check this film out if you have 17 minutes. Film doesn't show it but the guy was tossed into an insane asylum for his beliefs. Religion not a factor, just denial. It took not just Pasteur but Heinrich Koch and nearly a half-century before doctors--science people--quit resisting the truth. Sorry off-topic a little but worth knowing.

You asked in your original post why so many are so driven to control other people. Psychologist Alice Miller--regarded by her peers the same way Semmelweiss was regarded by his--might have answered that it's a voluntary choice, their part, but that the explanation lies in the fact that they were themselves controlled. So it's a matter of repetition compulsion and revenge, really, while at the same time a way denying and defending the dishonestly of their parents, far as I'm concerned completely the same as with religion. With the US constitution government for the first time split off from religion, but it takes a bit of denying to claim that even 'secular' control doesn't still share the same original root: that somehow there can exist any moral basis at all to own, in one way or another, at either the individual or state level, a fellow human.

Which takes me back to human rights, a "leftist" cause. It isn't really, is the thing. Freedom is what everybody wants but was so systematically denied to our ancestors that we don't know how to act once we see it. That's I think why Fromm had to write "Escape From Freedom". The right runs to religion while the left runs to the state. Neither is the answer and it's disappointing so many "freethinkers" have such apparently tremendous trouble seeing that.

If I could make an excuse for myself--I've been interrupted a biunch of times trying to write this, train of thought derailed, and I'm seriously out of time to polish, much. But just try this: check the Freedom From Religion Foundation's podcasts, if you haven't already (Annie Laurie and Dan Barker). They self-identify as liberals but let them call themselves what ever they want. What's important is that they put themselves in the face of religious bullies. That's the way it has to be with human rights: "Anyone who lives inside the United States can never be considered an outsider anywhere within its bounds. ", King wrote from Birmingham jail. While the ffr foundation sticks pretty strictly to church/state separation issues, when it comes to human rights the same is as true of a neighborhood as it is the country and the planet too--it's humanly irresponsible to look the other way.

Oh man. Did I just do a sermon?! That sucks! People should goof OFF, Sundays!

Hope all's well there, I'm gone.
Comment by Red_Lillith on November 7, 2009 at 11:32pm
Thank you Steve and I will say it cause I don't give a rat's patooty. YOU GO BOY! Tonight is a sad night for all true freedom loving Americans. The healthcare bill has passed the house by a vote of 220 to 215 it will go to the senate sometime at the first of the year. Democrats will hold this back as long as possible to ensure their reelection because they think we are just dumb enough to put them back in so they can't push this bull down our throat. We can't let that happen. If this bill passes we will have three choices. Pay for healthcare, Pay a fine of $700 a year, or go to jail for five years. This takes away our CHOICE this is not freedom. Its do or die time people. Are we the USA or the USSA?
Comment by Steve Thomas on November 7, 2009 at 7:45am
Hi Red,

Madalyn Murray O'Hair said that the thing that makes atheists dangerous is that if they can question 'the ultimate authority' then they can question any authority. And she's right. The more questioning we do the more dangerous we are. I'm trying real hard not to say "You go, girl!" but basically that's what I'm thinking. And that's not because I consider myself conservative but just because I love people who resist conforming. I reject the notion that I must bow my head to one side or the other to begin with. Always have. I hate bowing my head. To anybody. It makes me puke. To me the inspiration of Jefferson was that he believed deep-down in ordinary people, in the basically anti-government, apolitical notion that we can work stuff out for ourselves. If not as individuals then we could do it as local, independent groups. Is that 'liberal'? 'Conservative'? I don't know. I know his main political enemy was Alexander Hamilton, who said something like: "The people is a great beast," basically wanting (and I think succeeding at getting) a bunch of his rich banker buddies to run the show as much as possible. That sounds "conservative" of him. At least according to the liberal definition. But my experience is that people who describe themselves as liberal are just as mistrusting of innate human nature as Hamilton was, just as fearful of what would happen if we were ever allowed to "do our own thing". I respect the hell out of you and your boyfriend's refusal to accept the authority of the left, bottom line. In its way the left is just as hypocritically "lettuce help you" as any evangelical Christian religion there ever has been. I think just as oppressive, too. Yeah. I'll even say misanthropic. Not like Jefferson at all, is the point. Whew.

Hillbillies and rednecks forever!! That's what I say! Have you ever seen Dolly Parton's cover of "Imagine"? The thing about brings me to my knees, makes me proud, really. There's something really right about people. We just gotta find it, bring it out and quit trying so goddam hard to control each other. Because "control" is, exactly as you said, what governing really is. Calling the people who end up "governing" people "leaders" is nothing but to buy into another big, huge, stinking delusion. All right I'll shut up. You guys just keep right on questioning all authority. You're completely right to do that.
Comment by Red_Lillith on November 7, 2009 at 5:21am
Hi guys I've been gone offline a few days life is insane! Again thank you for all of your comments. Dallas I agree that Bush was terrible couldn't stand the man. The patriot act is a terrible thing and Bush is the one that started the bank bail outs not Obama.I totally agree. They are both awful but Obama is worse. He would like to see net neutrality, pushed fox news out of the press pool and told people to be careful what they put on facebook. All attacks on our individual freedom of speech. You should never threaten someone because they differ in opinion from you thats what makes this country great and what made him president.

On taxation. When I am Dr."Lillith" M.D. I am sure that I will be making several 100k a year and my taxes will go up by thousands a year and thats ok. I won't go hungry and I know two things. While I was poor my taxes were returned to me and now that I am more fortunate I need to make sure my roads and state services keep on running. Cool. However if you read through Obama's 1800 page healthcare plan (actually there are 5) and I did (I know I have no life) then you will see that under government run healthcare Dr's pay will be cut not in half not in thirds but to a quarter. YES a quarter! If I was ok with making a nurses pay I would go to nursing school ya know?
Comment by Edward Teach on November 5, 2009 at 9:13am
Comment by Jaume on November 5, 2009 at 8:59am
I can only guess that the "under God" add to the pledge comes a close second ;-)
Comment by Edward Teach on November 5, 2009 at 7:19am
I'm with you, Louis!

It is a false dichotomy. I imagine the odds against me determining my own political views, and those views just "happening" to completely match the platform of one of the two major parties, must be astronomical!

Regarding civil liberties, there has never been a single peice of legislation in my life time that robbed our citizens of civil liberties as much as the Patriot Act.
Comment by Louis on November 5, 2009 at 3:07am
Why even call yourself a Libertarian?

All political labels are unreasonably overloaded, and if one is not overloaded, it's only 'not overloaded yet.' That makes it all too easy for people to form an opinion of you and people's opinions are notoriously wrong -- especially when it comes to other people.

When someone asks me about my party or my politics I tell them to ask me about an issue, and I'll tell them what I think. If they're going to form a necessarily flawed first impression of me, as is the case with everyone of everyone else, it may as start with something more meaningful than Party A,B, or C.
Comment by Red_Lillith on November 5, 2009 at 2:42am
Another strong point good history *smiles* George Washington was an incredible person with a huge grasp of what it took to make the wheels of the country turn. Its hard to imagine he felt himself unequal to the task.
Comment by Red_Lillith on November 4, 2009 at 8:46pm
I totally agree Louis LOL! There isn't a well rounded republican or democrat worthy of the name of their party affiliation anymore. I myself am registered Liberterian because I feel they are at least in the ball park of my ideals though I still differ in some arenas. I think our government as a whole need a high colonic to be honest. Things have been static for so long no one knows how to change the system because they are in it up to their eyeballs. More common men (and by that I mean no more vultu...... opps lawyers) and less stuffed shirts would benefit us all. Honestly we are already way off the grid things that are not even questioned anymore like income tax are illegal via double taxation laws I.E. we pay taxes on our money before we get it and then we pay sales tax to spend our money.



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