I haven't had time to finish my response to him, but this is what he has been saying to me. Sorry about the weird quoting ways - it's difficult and tedious to quote from wordpress. If you want more clarifications on the discussion, visit http://exmuslimdiaries.wordpress.com where the discussion is being held on the posts 'Post Hijab' and 'Sacred Stupidity' Not that the = indicates things I have said - just the way he has quoted me.
= Since you very kindly listed the problems in Western society, let me list the problems in a religious - or specifically Islamic society:
I listed the problems that arise in secular society, not just in the west. I raised this point to show you why secularism shouldn’t reign. And you still havent shouldn’t be bugger all to show why it should! Rather this is about the 6th time you have avoided the question, turned it round and then asked about Islam
=Intolerance to homosexuals - condoning homophobic behaviour.
By whose moral standards is that wrong?
=Intolerance to apostates - condemning those who make the choice of leaving Islam. Yes you can quote the verse in the Quran that says there is no compulsion in religion, but there are also verses that completely contradict that.
By whose moral standards is that wrong?
=Treatment of women - they are seen as one rank less than men.
Women are NOT ‘one rank less then men’. Men are created a degree better then them, buts that very different then talking about their rank
=They cannot go out without a male Muslim relative accompanying them in Saudi Arabia (and that is run on ‘proper’ Shariah Law).
Saudi is a monarchy not based on ‘proper’ shareeah based law. As for the issue of the mehrems, don’t be silly, a woman doesn’t need a Mehrem every time she leaves the house! It’s when she travels long distances. I wonder if women would feel safe to travel from London to Manchester on a Friday night unless she was accompanied? Your ignorance upon Islamic Law is startling.
=They get blamed and stoned to death for committing adultery - even in a rape situation.
LOOOOL this is getting comical by the second! So a Muslim woman is raped, and she gets stoned? Please show me where did Muhammad SallAllahu alahiwasalam ever command this.
=Young Muslim girls are married off as young as 9 years old - following the example set by the prophet Muhammad.
By who’s moral standard is it wrong ?
=The war between Israel and Palestine? Sparked and maintained by religion.
Urghh, the ignorance is amazing. Zionism is a fascist ideology that was originally promoted by SECULAR Jewish atheists and non practicing Jews. Why was Israel not declared a religious state but a secular one then?
=The Taliban rule of Afghanistan - the fact that Afghanistan was a liberal nation before these religious fundamentalists took over. Look at how that affected their society?
I know many Afghans. They actually preferred the taliban over secular hamid karzai, since he has took power, hundred of thousands of afghans have died, and poppy production has increased ten folds. Have you know sense? Or heart? Cant you see the crimes committed by your secular warlord Hamidd Karzai with the help of the coalition?
=Female genital mutilation - yes you can say that this is a completely cultural thing, but Islam is very closely tied to culture.
Look, either its Islamic or its cultural luv! Cant be both. Where does Islaam allow this?
=Mass starvation in African countries that are ‘Muslim’ - complete poverty.
Its like me stealing someones money, and then saying to that person “look at the complete poverty you are in!” How can post colonial nations, with secular puppet rulers ever be a nation that can provide for the needs of its people, when it implements vicious economic terrorism by the IMF, sanctions etc?
=Environmental damage in various religious nations occur - I remember the UAE and Pakistan to be environmentally unclean - with litter everywhere and pollution being caused by the vast amounts of carbon emission.
Eh? UAE is lovely! That’s why so many people are leaving here for there! As for Pakistan, that’s a SECULAR country. Go to the website for its constitution.
=Crime and disorder? How about Iraq? Iran? Afghanistan? They aren’t exactly the most socially and politically matured countries.
You cant be serious! Iraq and Afghanistan are both under the control of foreign secular forces and are now being ruled by Secular puppets Norui Maliki and Hamid Karzai. So if anything this is an argument against you! This is the problem with secularists, they are in denial when the facts are put forth top them, and then they pick on countries which unwittingly they don’t realize are secular! What a joke!
Even Iraq under Sadam was quite developed as a country, despite it being a socielistc, pro secular dictatorship. The Taliban had actually ruled with justice in regards to security, and sharing resources around the country. In fact go ask Yvonne ridely about the taliban, she became a Muslim after being captured by them as a POW! And compare her treatment to the forces of liberation gave to the women of Iraq once they were locked inside Abu gharib. They were gang raped, and the people that raped her are meant to be the flagbearers of women rights!
I guess the scoial and political side is also affected in Iraq due to the 1.5 million deaths since the invasion. 75% done by the coalition.
=Drugs? Many countries including Pakistan and Afghanistan have drug trades, and especially in Pakistan it’s not exactly difficult to get hold of alcohol. Same as the United Arab Emirates. I know because I’m quite well traveled.
Pakistan is secular and thus the drug problem. Afghanistan’s drug problem as soared through the roof since secular foreign terrorist forces along with secular puppet Hamid Karzai have come into play.
=One of my friends was brought up in the suburbs close to Afghanistan and he witnessed this first hand. He got molested at a young age (he was 9 years old). So yes, I know about this personally.
And the punishment in Islam for sexual molestation is?… Jail
Where as the punishment in secular western nations is….a clean cell with food, water, education courses, and serving half a sentence.. If we follow Insana’s logic, then it would be ‘human nature’!
=Single mums? Oh yes, devil’s work right there. Those heathen nations with their single mums. Give me a break.
Those heathen nations with those whore women who receive no support from their whore counterparts indeed.
=Abdullah, you are wrong. I have many Qadiani friends who follow the teachings of Islam MORE SO than my non-Qadiani friends. You are wsaying I am wrong for calling Muslims who sin non-Muslim, yet you are calling a branch of Islam un-Islamic yourself. I am completely offended by that statement.
Qadianis are not Muslims because they go against and disagree with Quranic verses. They actually override the verse. It’s like God saying that there is only One God and then someone saying that there are two gods, and yet they are still Muslim. Can’t be.
=I have to add that you need to get your facts straight, Abdullah.
Qadiani’s do not follow a PROPHET after Muhammad, they do not see the Khalifa as a prophet…since all the Khalifa’s have been elected - so do not make assumptions based on what people have told you. Your perception of the Qadiani sect is wrong - I know because I was brought up in it and I know exactly how it works.
Oh you’re an ex Qadiani!! No wonder you keep getting your facts on Islam wrong. I know this community very well indeed! They are a cult based upon their own cultural customs of what constitutes right and wrong. Mirza Ghulam Ahmad was a false prophet who was a stooge in the British army. He died in his own faeces while having bowel problems. His dawah was that he indeed was a prophet and that obeying the British in colonial India was a divine obligation. Which is of course garbage. Seems you don’t know much about your faith, let alone the central tenet.
=One more thing, you said that Qadianis contradict the Quran because it says Muhammad is the seal of the prophets - well Muslims also contradict the Quran when they sin - but you said yourself that does not make them non-Muslims.
Double standards, much? It seems like sinners have it easy.
You know, I wish there was someone else here that could correct such a wrong, cultural, qadiani understanding as you have. I keep telling you sins don’t invalidate ones eman, Rather acts of kufr do! And major fisq is different to major kufr! I know see why you lack even a basic understanding of Islam and Muslims. You wasn’t one to begin with! And here I am typing away thinking “How can someone be so out of touch with even the basics of Islamic Aqeedah” no wonder!
This is not the focus of our discussion. And like so many other of your points, they turn from sensible questions to haphazard rants, as we shall soon see. You add in the above that an atheist lives his life to the fullest, as if a Muslim or indeed any other religious person doesn’t. In fact, the growth of religion and Islam being the fastest growing religion in Europe just baffles the secularist…
Furthermore we have seen the ideological impact of atheism with communism and the deaths of millions it caused. I wonder of those dead who lead fulfilled lives?
As with your last post (which you didn’t read) your using terms you have zero understanding of. Stop throwing words that you don’t understand. Please.
Hell obsessions again? Well for many it works. But is Islam all about doing actions for fear of God? No. Islam combines fear, hope and love as necessary components to worship God.
Atheists are morally bankrupt and secularism which manifests itself in Godless political, economic and social decisions is a proof of that as with the mass murder, starvation, corruption that has occurred as a result of its implementation.
LOL I found this one funny: “Muslim extremists (like the ones who go around killing women for being raped)”. I think the more educated readers will discern that such comments are the height of silliness.
I know I wont get an answer from this question Im about to ask, but here goes. Can you please documents where you got this idea from? Which ‘Muslim extremists’ are you talking about?
My second question is, what is the shareeah punishment for a Muslim woman being raped? In all honesty is the rape victim put to death? Please show me the hadeeths for such judicial punishments
Your comments are blanketed in lies such as: “Muslim extremists (like the ones who go around killing women for being raped)
As per usual you misunderstood that specific case. And then you arrive to zany conclusions. You say that Saudi is a country based on Islamic law. In matters of Islamic Fiqh, they are Hanbali. But the countries basis is a monarchy, you then say that Saudi is a state that flogs rape victims for adultery…err OK! Can you please show me this shareeah based law?
America is a diverse nation (Muslims, Christians, Atheists, Jews, Gays, Lesbian etc),a SECULAR NATION. Can you please tell me where in the constitution it states that it to be a Christian nation…err hello! The Christian empire died some time ago in Europe! Times have moved on dear. USA is not a nation whose constitution is Christian, army is Christian, foreign policy is the Christian, government is Christian. America is a secular nation and the neo-con think tanks that influenced bush are the most furthest away from religion, just look at Dick Cheney and his lesbian daughter!
Dear me, its not sinking in is it. America is secular nation that had a president who has PERSONAL CONVICTIONS of Christianity which do not impact on its policies/outlook.
Tony Blair is a Christian too, can anyone say Britain is a Christian state governed by Jesus Christ’s laws as found in the Bible????
Time have moved on dear. The reformation has took place, secular revolts have come about and secularism reigns the day.
SCREAM RIOT AND INSANA, THE DAYS OF THE BYZTANTIAN AND ROMAN EMPIRE HAVE GONE. WE LIVE IN THE 21ST CENTURY.
WE NOW HAVE SECULARISIM WHICH, THOUGH ALLOWING PEOPLE *PERSONAL* BELIEFS, RESTRICTS RELIGION IN SPHERES OF POLITICS, ECONOMICS ETC PLEASE UNDERSTAND!”
=The British National Party - whom I strongly oppose for their narrow-minded and racist beliefs - is based on ethnic cleansing to bring back CHRISTIANITY to Britain.
LOL NO COMMENT!
Secularism has been tried and tested and is a disaster, Islam clearly wasn’t. Everyone is suffering from it, esp since the global economic meltdown.
Global economic meltdown? EVERYONE is suffering from that…LOL! It’s not like Muslim countries are in a better condition.
=I live a secular life, I’m a good person.
If you don’t mind saying so yourself lol. I disagree, I think from your posts, I can tell you’re a misguided person. A person with very little objectivity, and someone who is a blind adherent to an evil ideology which has no basis to be followed and in the pursuit of defending this ideology, lies about Islam. Such as saying that Islam allows punishing rape victims via stoning for them being raped.
Atheists on a whole have no morals, they are despicable and cold as a people, and the secular manifestation of man made godless laws makes them barbaric and extremely intolerant.
As a people on a whole, they wouldn’t give two hoots if someone was dying on the side of the pavement, or if a man was having sex with an animal in public.
The God forsaken ideology of secularism, once manifesting itself in politics is just as awful. We have seen how intolerant secularism is with its demonisation of Muslims across the world especially in Europe with the hijab ban and media campaign which akin to something Hitler would do. We see that it infringes upon the rights of people of different faiths, as we saw in communist Russia, china, north korea etc, where people were massacred en masse for merely believing in God.
If you read my reply to you, you would of understood your own question. Please check the point about empirical evidence and well reasoned arguments. I gave the example of how design is detected without need of empirical evidence and the question of God doesn’t stem from empirical evidence. It’s a question about the creation, as opposed to the scientific origins of the universe.